Friends,
Here are some questions that are about 50 years late:
  1. Are notes that are open on the F horn such as written middle C, E ,G played with the F extention on the 5 Valve Bb horn, or is it just for very low notes?
  2. Also, if the F extention valve is in use are the other valves usable? I know you can push them down, but do they play any notes in tune?
  3. Are there combinations that involve the stopping valve and the F valve?
Leonard/in isolation in Laredo
1. Are notes that are open on the F horn such as written middle C, E ,G played with the F extention on the 5 Valve Bb horn, or is it just for very low notes?
They can be; but ordinarily are not. Some may be picked on the F valve for pitch, timbre, volume, or other reasons. It is almost always used to replace the 1-3 Bb horn valve combination.
2. Also, if the F extention valve is in use are the other valves usable? I know you can push them down, but do they play any notes in tune?
Yes, they can be used; but sometimes you wind up with odd combinations to get a note in tune. Such as maybe playing a low A with 2-3 valving. See next question.
3. Are there combinations that involve the stopping valve and the F valve?
Of course; why not? The stop valve is about the same length as 2nd valve slide on an F horn -- thus you have all overtone series in F and in E. Then there is 2 + stop which gives one a longer F+1st combine. Or- with an A valve slide in the 2+Stop valve is pretty near equal to an F 1st valve but sharper. (or with the stop slide pushed in all the way.)
Mansur's Answers
1. Are notes that are open on the F horn such as written middle C, E ,G played with the F extention on the 5 Valve Bb horn, or is it just for very low notes?
The added tubing make the horn the same length as as the open F horn.
2. Also, if the F extention valve is in use are the other valves usable? I know you can push them down, but do they play any notes in tune?
Quite right, the valve slides are to short for the longer tube, but there are combinations that work, the F valve and the 1st valve make a good "horn in E" length for instance
3. Are there combinations that involve the stopping valve and the F valve?
Yes, quite a few since the A valve in a length part way between the 1st & 2nd valves it can be used to make some combinations more in tune.

Good resourcs for these fingerings are the front of the Sansone Method books, Southern Music pub. Since Sansone was a bit proponent of the 5-valve Bb horns.

Brad
Hi Leonard,

I used a single B flat with stopping valve & F loop on occasions, and found it quite a useful system, particularly for chamber music. The fingerings I found good for pedal notes were F loop for pedal C, then F - St for B, F - 1&2 for B flat, F - 1&2&St for A, F - 1&2&3 for A flat, and then press down everything (and pray!) for pedal G. F sharp had to be faked, but then it is only a B flat horn! The F loop is also very useful in the middle register for alternates. The old Sansone method is a good reference.

I also have a descant horn (Paxman) which is F alto with an F loop added to the B flat side. This is very useful to improve the choices in the middle register, and also allows reasonable fingerings for the odd pedal note.

Cheers,

Graeme Evans
First I would like to thank everyone that wrote in about how to use the 5 valve Bb horn. I would like to share the results in case there are any other horn players who have not been exposed to this instrument.

I asked.. is the F valve only used for the low notes or is it also used on other open F~horn notes.

Most answers were that the F valve was used to replace the 1-3 combination on the Bb horn. Most saved the F slide for low notes but did, on occation, use it on middle C and E and G for intonation and tone reasons. It is also needed for a few notes that the Bb horn can not reach.

I asked if the "regular" Bb keys could be used when the F slide was in use.

Several players told me no, the valves could not be used because they were too sharp, but most answers said that they were useful. The most common advice was to finger 1/2 step lower with the F valve. That is, to play an A while using the F valve finger it like an Ab. Almost everyone said the intonation had to be played with to make this work.

I asked if the stopping valve was ever used with the F valve.

I was given countless fingerings using the stopping valve. Some included the F valve also. If you have not seen a stopping valve it lies in length between the first valve and the second valve. The stopped Bb horn is sharp, this valve brings it down.

I knew the 5 valve Bb was in use in Europe but I was surprised by the number of replys I got from this side of the ocean. I learned a lot about the instrument. I always thought the stopping valve was only for stopped notes and the F valve was only for low Cs and such that would be open on the F horn.

Leonard
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